lady_branwyn: (typewriter; picowrimo)
[personal profile] lady_branwyn
And I made it to the end of National Blog Posting Month! *throws confetti*
A question for you Tolkienists--any suggestions for the term for an individual from Harad? I could not find an attested singular form for Haradrim (or for other plurals of that declension, like Galadhrim). Some gamers use "Harad" which sounds a little silly since it means simply "South." I'm tempted to create my own word following the form of Dunadan/Dunedain (West Man/ West Men). The singular form "Haradan" would be a shortened version of the original (and difficult to say) "Haradadan." Though I could always fall back on "Southron." Thoughts?

Date: 2011-12-01 04:11 am (UTC)

Date: 2011-12-05 11:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lady-branwyn.livejournal.com
I like the sound of that better than "Haradan" or simply "Harad." I wonder if Tolkien modeled that particular declension on the "-im" plural form in Hebrew. In which case, I think I'm stuck with "harad" for the singular.

Date: 2011-12-01 05:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lindahoyland.livejournal.com
I usually say Man/ woman of Harad or Southron.

Date: 2011-12-05 11:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lady-branwyn.livejournal.com
That is one way around it.

Date: 2011-12-01 10:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azalaisdep.livejournal.com
I was also going to suggest Haradri, though I think you're right that the most linguistically correct would be "Haradan" and that's quite neat.

Whether or not you use "Southron" might depend on the POV; I'm sure Gondorrim, Rohirrim etc would think of someone from Harad as a Southron but the Haradrim probably wouldn't use that term of themselves (and they might well have a completely different term describing themselves in terms of their own religion/culture, but we don't have enough Haradric IIRC to know what it might be!)

Date: 2011-12-05 11:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lady-branwyn.livejournal.com
"Harad" is simply Sindarin for "South," so the Haradrim probably had some other name for themselves.
My problem with "Haradan" is that it sounds too much like "harridan," lol!
Nice icon. :)

Date: 2011-12-01 01:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] curiouswombat.livejournal.com
I was thinking Haradi - whereas my husband says he has always presumed it is a word like sheep, which is the same in singular or plural. He may have a point as I cannot think of a singular for Galadhrim, although a single member of the Rohirrim is a Rohir... hence the possibility of Harad as a singular for Haradrim.

The Gondorrim singular is Gondorian... so Haradian?

Date: 2011-12-05 11:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lady-branwyn.livejournal.com
Do you know whether Tolkien used the term "Rohir"? Fan writers use it all the time, and it actually makes sense because it means "horse lord". That is an interesting idea that it might be the same in both singular and plural. That would explain why Tolkien didn't bother telling us the singular form.

Date: 2011-12-06 12:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azalaisdep.livejournal.com
I've never seen it used by him, but since he stated quite clearly in the Letters (when explaining to someone the etymology of Elrohir's name) that it meant horse-lord, I've always felt quite comfortable using it for one of the Rohirrim (we do know, though I forget where he says it, that the -rim suffix specifically means "a host of", hence Rohirrim, Gondorrim. So if I wanted to refer to an individual, male member of the Galadhrim he'd probably be a Galadhir...)

Date: 2011-12-01 02:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kortirion.livejournal.com
I generally use Southron, but as [livejournal.com profile] azalaisdep says, it does depend on the pov of the speaker as I doubt they'd call themselves that... on the otherhand - do Scandinavian/Viking types call themselves 'Northmen'?

I think they do... might... have to read some sagas in translation to see. I'm sure I've seen them refer to themselves as such... in contrast to us soft southerners in Britain! Mind you - that could be a bit of Hollywood licence, and a touch of Bernard Cornwell's novels!

I quite favour 'Haradi' as sounding like it's correct if you decide against Southron

Date: 2011-12-05 11:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lady-branwyn.livejournal.com
Since "Harad" is Sindarin, these folks must have called themselves something else. Though Tolkien didn't bother to tell us what, lol.
I searched an online translation of Egil's Saga, and the narrator does refer to the people as Norsemen. (At least according to this particular translator...)
I like the sound of "Haradi," too.

Date: 2011-12-06 12:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azalaisdep.livejournal.com
Though Tolkien didn't bother to tell us what, lol.

Thinking of some of Dwimordene's fantastic Third and Fourth Age Haradric fic, they might have called themselves something like the "People of the Desert", or "The Dry Ones", or - given that they worshipped Sauron-as-Annatar - the "People of the Gift-Giver".

Which reminds me of, and gives me the opportunity to plug, [livejournal.com profile] altariel's fabulous Fourth Age ficlet Red River, in which we really feel the consequences of the Ring War from the other side. Well worth a quick read!

Hmmm, now to see if poor-flaky-LJ will post this without eating it, am going to copy it first in case...

Date: 2011-12-02 02:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] edoraslass.livejournal.com
It's "Haradric", isn't it? She is Haradric; that is a Haradric gown. Although I have no idea where I got that.

Date: 2011-12-05 11:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lady-branwyn.livejournal.com
I think that "Haradric" is either be a noun referring to the language or an adjective. I hate the way Tolkien didn't flesh out the details about people or things he wasn't particularly interested in. What a lousy DM. :D

Date: 2011-12-12 04:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rakshathedemon.livejournal.com
I think you could have some leeway here, but of course, I'm no linguist.

Haradri or Haradraic could be the adjective; Haradir or Haradhir (?Sindarin) or Haradrian for 'person of Harad'.

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